working4christ2--- banned catholic answers forum

Gabriel Serafin · May 5, '13, 6:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999

The law had not been dealt with while Jesus was on the way to the cross. Only after the resurrection could it be stated that "there is,therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Obviously there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But one needs to understand what it mean to be in Christ, and to realize that one ceases to be in Christ when He reject's God's grace, through willful mortal sin. Thus Paul warned:

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)

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Those who know they have been FOREVER freed from fear of condemnation are the only ones equipped to be sanctified.

Sure, absolutely. Yet you still have free will to reject grace. There are people who know and believe that smoking is unhealthy and bad for their lungs and may cause cancer, yet they still choose to smoke. Your heart may be filled with anger, pride and un-forgiveness; and no amount of belief is going to save you if you do not repent and uproot those sentiments from your heart. Thus Jesus warned:

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matt.5:22

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If you tell someone they better stop coveting or ELSE!.....Paul says that causes them to sin MORE! (It did to him) The Law, when it comes in contact with a sinner, actually stirs up sin! (Romans 7) It doesn't work for preventing sin. But LEGALISTS think it does.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Paul frequently admonished Christians about not falling into sin or even to associate with self-proclaimed Christians who lived immoral lives: I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Jesus Himself, when directly asked what one must do to be saved, said: If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Matt. 19:17

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And I agree that only those who continue in the faith were really saved.

Yes, and continuing in the faith means at least keeping the commandments as Jesus told the young rich man in Matt. 19:17. Having faith requires a person to put it into action. Earlier you were claiming that we weren't bound by the 10 commandments. James was addressing people who were teaching exactly what you are claiming, that faith alone saves. Now read what James had to say to them:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

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getting baptized doesn't save you.

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

"Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21)

Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism Col. 2:11-12

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4)

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Faith in the blood of the cross saves you, and it regenerates and a new heart is created that WILL produce good works, more and more.

Again, only with those who choose to respond to God's grace every day, getting back up when they fall, persevering until the end of their life will be saved: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.. 1 John 2:4

If your heart is full of envy, lust, pride, un-forgiveness, and you're a glutton, dishonest, make idols out of things and people, and do not love your neighbor, then all the faith in the world is not going to save you: If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

There are people who go through life, claiming that they love God, and that they are saved, claiming they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, thinking they are going straight to heaven when they die, and even use their limited and erroneous knowledge of the Bible to condemn, accuse and slander others of going to hell. But Scripture is clear:
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 1 John 4:20

Bodyandblood999 · #77 Yesterday, 4:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriel Serafin

Obviously there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But one needs to understand what it mean to be in Christ, and to realize that one ceases to be in Christ when He reject's God's grace, through willful mortal sin. Thus Paul warned:

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)

Sure, absolutely. Yet you still have free will to reject grace. There are people who know and believe that smoking is unhealthy and bad for their lungs and may cause cancer, yet they still choose to smoke. Your heart may be filled with anger, pride and un-forgiveness; and no amount of belief is going to save you if you do not repent and uproot those sentiments from your heart. Thus Jesus warned:

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matt.5:22

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Paul frequently admonished Christians about not falling into sin or even to associate with self-proclaimed Christians who lived immoral lives: I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Jesus Himself, when directly asked what one must do to be saved, said: If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Matt. 19:17

Yes, and continuing in the faith means at least keeping the commandments as Jesus told the young rich man in Matt. 19:17. Having faith requires a person to put it into action. Earlier you were claiming that we weren't bound by the 10 commandments. James was addressing people who were teaching exactly what you are claiming, that faith alone saves. Now read what James had to say to them:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

"Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21)

Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism Col. 2:11-12

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4)

Again, only with those who choose to respond to God's grace every day, getting back up when they fall, persevering until the end of their life will be saved: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.. 1 John 2:4

If your heart is full of envy, lust, pride, un-forgiveness, and you're a glutton, dishonest, make idols out of things and people, and do not love your neighbor, then all the faith in the world is not going to save you: If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

There are people who go through life, claiming that they love God, and that they are saved, claiming they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, thinking they are going straight to heaven when they die, and even use their limited and erroneous knowledge of the Bible to condemn, accuse and slander others of going to hell. But Scripture is clear:
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 1 John 4:20

You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is "imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven" for me, who am "protected by the power of God through faith."-- I Peter 1:4,5

Redfred · #78 Yesterday, 4:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999

You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is "imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven" for me, who am "protected by the power of God through faith."-- I Peter 1:4,5

Correct. When God chose you and your old man was crucified with Christ, nothing was left to be condemned, and all possibilities were already anticipate. That is why grace is AMAZING.

Darryl B · #79 Yesterday, 5:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999

You, my friend, are still under the law. You must pray that God will show you what it means to be justified and cleansed from all sin, not because of your works or promises, but because of the blood Christ, shed ONCE FOR ALL. I have a Father who, according to scripture, dealt with ALL my sins and my inheritance is "imperishable, undefiled, and [that] will not fade away, reserved in heaven" for me, who am "protected by the power of God through faith."-- I Peter 1:4,5

The law that you refer to is the law of sacrifices. There is still LAW. That is the 10 commandments. You are not free from that law. You are obliged to keep it as a follower of Jesus Christ. If you break that law that is sin my friend. Are you suggesting that you are not under this law?

There is only ONE sacrifice, but that sacrifice needs to be applied. Every time I sin and am repentant of that sin the ONE time sacrifice gets applied to my life. Otherwise all my sins were forgiven me before I was born, and I would probably be truly happy in such a state.

God's promises are sure, you are correct on that. But they are also conditional, conditional on us. It requires continuing to the end.

Bodyandblood999 · #80 Yesterday, 6:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darryl B

The law that you refer to is the law of sacrifices. There is still LAW. That is the 10 commandments. You are not free from that law. You are obliged to keep it as a follower of Jesus Christ. If you break that law that is sin my friend. Are you suggesting that you are not under this law?

There is only ONE sacrifice, but that sacrifice needs to be applied. Every time I sin and am repentant of that sin the ONE time sacrifice gets applied to my life. Otherwise all my sins were forgiven me before I was born, and I would probably be truly happy in such a state.

God's promises are sure, you are correct on that. But they are also conditional, conditional on us. It requires continuing to the end.

I have heard That comment about what kind of law we are no longer under. And it simply does not match with scripture. I can understand why you would try to make that argument, because the reality of not being under the law if, we are talking about the entire law, is a problem for Roman Catholicism. But it is time for you to face the music. Notice what Paul says in Romans seven about what kind of law we are not under. Notice what he says about the law that tripped him up. Does he talk about some sacrificial law? Absolutely not! What he says he had a problem with was the command not to covet. You know as well as I do where that comes from. It comes from the 10 Commandments. That is the law that Jesus set us free from and for which He gave us not only cleansing and justification but a new heart so that we now have the power to keep all of the law, even though if we fail to measure up, we are still free, because yes, we are no longer under the law! So you need to find a new argument to refute what Paul says about Christians not being under the law anymore!

Darryl B · #81 Yesterday, 9:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999

I have heard That comment about what kind of law we are no longer under. And it simply does not match with scripture. I can understand why you would try to make that argument, because the reality of not being under the law if, we are talking about the entire law, is a problem for Roman Catholicism. But it is time for you to face the music. Notice what Paul says in Romans seven about what kind of law we are not under. Notice what he says about the law that tripped him up. Does he talk about some sacrificial law? Absolutely not! What he says he had a problem with was the command not to covet. You know as well as I do where that comes from. It comes from the 10 Commandments. That is the law that Jesus set us free from and for which He gave us not only cleansing and justification but a new heart so that we now have the power to keep all of the law, even though if we fail to measure up, we are still free, because yes, we are no longer under the law! So you need to find a new argument to refute what Paul says about Christians not being under the law anymore!

In yet in the Beatitudes Jesus Christ reinforced the Law, and he also fulfilled the Law (made it complete) and reiterated it with love Lord God and neighbour as self of which the entire law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. The Law hasn't been done away with it has been made complete.

So what was the requirement under the Law for breaking the Commandments? Sacrifice of animals. We don't sacrifice animals for breaking the Law, and that is where grace comes into effect through repentance from breaking the Law. Law, sin, repent, grace. That is amazing.

You are not free from the Commandments (Law) you are free from the requirements as a consequence of breaking that Law.

Love4All · #82 Today, 12:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cachonga

I don't find Purgatory anywhere in the Scriptures. Even Catholics will admit (if they're honest) that the Scriptures they point to are "indications", not "proofs" of the doctrine.

Um, Protestants, if they are honest, will admit that God entrusted the care and feeding of His flock, not to a book (the Bible) but to a man (Saint Peter.)

So, it is the Church, and not the private individual, who determines the meaning of Scripture.

Cachonga · #83 Today, 12:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love4All

Um, Protestants, if they are honest, will admit that God entrusted the care and feeding of His flock, not to a book (the Bible) but to a man (Saint Peter.)

Jesus (and Paul, Timothy, and others in the early Church) entrusted the care and feeding of the flock to faithful men, And do you believe the Scriptures are God-breathed (inspired)? If so, then why do you think God bothered to have the New Testament written? You don't have to answer, since it's off topic, but just think about it.

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So, it is the Church, and not the private individual, who determines the meaning of Scripture.

Any true Christian will recognize the authority of the Church. Again, this is not on topic, so I'll stop here.

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013

Is Purgatory in the Bible? banned catholic answers